Beer and wine in cornerstores
 

Do you think Ontario should be like Quebec and the US and sell beer at the cornerstore.
Did you know the the Beer Store is owned by Molson/Coors, Labatts or Busch and Sappora, all foreign brewers. 49/49/2%. Not the Ontario government.

Yes, and also the LCBO must be privatized.

Why should we be forced to get liquor and many wines and beer at a monopoly outlet run by overpaid union workers at extremely high prices? They also had a poor record on keeping booze from kids according to a recent study.

Beer without a doubt should be available at cornerstores! Ontario government doesn't own the beer store its why should our beer be sold by a foreign owned monopoly?! Big brewers have the ears and lined the pockets of the current government, so a change in government would help this happen!

LCBO is different, government's invested big time in the chains and infrastructure for liquor distribution. Perhaps they could have later hours or some drive thru ares (there's have a drive thru beer store in London that works great)

if you think prices are high in Ontario, please, feel free to pay the prices we pay our here in alberta, when i first moved here a few months ago i couldn`t believe the price differences. believe it or not, the Ontario government charges less as the LCBO than a private store charges out here, and atleast a bonus for people in Ontario, the money goes towards tax revenue. i would gladly welcome the prices I paid in London out here, any day.

A 24 of bottles of Labatts Blue in Ontario is what, 30 bucks? here is average 40ish (if you find the sales), cans aren`t much less either.

I would like to be able to buy alcohol more readily.

What I would really like is if private businesses could open stores that sold more specialty products, particularly microbrews from the US. Some LCBOs have a good selection of beer, but it's very limited compared to what's out there.

As for privatization of LCBO, why would you do that? Is this just being proposed on ideological grounds? I would rather the profits went into the government's coffers than to some rich guy. Other than the limited selection, the stores are well run and provide workers with decent paying jobs. I'm fine with that, I don't want everyone working two minimum wage jobs to make ends meet.

And just so everyone knows, in many small Ontario towns and villages, you can buy liquor in corner stores.
The store in Port Lambton is licensed by both the LCBO and the Beer STore and has a beer fridge with single cans and bottles right beside the checkout counter, plus a bigger refrigerated room and some shelves further in the store.

^ I've seen plenty of LCBO's incorporated into convenience stores in rural Ontario also. Definitely something that could/should be adapted in larger cities and towns.

I don't have any problems with seeing alcohol sold in more locations. I don't see why the LCBO should be privatized. It's one of the few revenue generators the Ontario government has left.

Beer availability
 

I watched an interview with the President of the convenience store assn awhile back and they did an independent survey as well as test.
They found that they were very stringent in policing the sale of smoke to minors.
He brought up a great point as currently they can sell lottery tickets a major concern and the lottery Corp has set up security measures to detect or deter abuse, they sell cigarettes which are controlled and as of last year hidden from the consumer so out of sight out of mind.
So why not beer and wine. The government just has to monitor and inspect.
People can shop in their own neighborhoods.
They do it in England and most of Europe and other provinces here. Are those people more responsible than us or smarter. No they are treated like adults.
I agree there may be some abuse and downside, but c'est la vie.
The beer store is a large monopoly and two major international breweries that control theOntario market. They save huge on delivery charges.
As stated funny how the beer store is available to the cities but allows agency stores in the rural areas. I love the store in Mildmay on the way to Sauble. They are so friendly and tell you the deals. Real customer service. I feel like I am interrupting the clerk at the beer store especially when I got empties.
Go private and let me the government cash cow be treated like a adult. Remember with the HST the price of spirits should have gone down slightly but the 57 cents may have lead abuse so they left it as corporate profit or heaven forbid the buck a beer, stop the public may like to too much. I think they took the threat of Alexander Keith "Those who like it, Like it a lot" to serious.

Ok...

To borrow an over-used expression of late, let's unpack this issue.

Most of us can agree that while the existing systems for beer/wine distribution are not terrible, they aren't ideal on several fronts.

What fronts are those?

Location Convenience: Principally this is an issue of how far you have to go to get your booze. In Cities like Toronto, if you drive, the distance is invariably no big deal; though for many who go car-free these days, the walk can be a bit much. While for those in small towns, the issue may either be no outlet at all, or one operating poor hours (close at 6pm on weekdays) (Sunday noon-4).

Product Selection: While in truth, single-outlet selection is better in most large LCBOs and Beer Stores than all but a very few booze-carrying outlets around the world, since they all carry a similar 'general list' of products, the variety among all outlets collectively is less. This means a poorer selection of micro-beers, and elite-level or obscure wines.

Price: Partly a function of monopolies, more substantially due to taxes and minimum price policies, wine + beer do cost more, particularly when compared to much of Europe, but also parts of the U.S. (particularly beer) and Quebec (beer again).

A quick review on-line of prices for your favourite wines will show the LCBO to be surprisingly competitive within Canada, and not that far out of step with most of the U.S. But there is less selection at the low end of the price range that you might find south-of-the-border.

*****

So...what can/should/will we do about the above?

Well, before we propose to gut the system, we need to understand why it is the way it is.

I'm not going to give a lecture on prohibition, LOL, but we do need to see why change is difficult.

First, on the Beer Store, the current system is very efficient for brewers and allows for full take-back and re-use of bottles.

Could this be done at convenience stores or grocery stores? Yes, it could. For those who remember deposit/return on glass pop bottles, been there/done that.

But it is barrier to entry, and of course, the more stops the brewer's trucks need to make, the more the distribution cost.

Ontario can break the monopoly, but needs to examine the implications for deposit/return, costs and of course, taxes. While a great deal of tax is on the product itself, The Beer Store is subject to provincial corporate taxes. Convenience stores, as small businesses, pay a much lower tax rate. Perhaps we can/should live w/that; but its likely we wouldn't. Which means taxes would rise in some other way to pay for that revenue loss.

*****

On the LCBO, the revenue stream to the gov't is a function of liquor taxes, but also corporate profit.

Privatizing gives you a one-time cash injection, but deprives you of on-going profit of over 1 Billion dollars.

But if you privatize, logically the value in the business is as-is; but surely you would have to end the monopoly, which would greatly de-value the asset you seek to sell?

Making up for it by hiking liquor taxes or charging for 'store licences' is possible. But see Alberta for what that's done. Prices are higher, not lower. You do have some additional locations, but that's not necessarily a trade I would make.

Its worth noting the LCBO is rather more efficient than people give it credit for, aside from logistics and being the largest purchaser of most wines/liquors in the world, its employees aren't nearly as well paid as you think. The Full Timers get wages in the high-teens per hour + benefits. But the part-timers get Min. Wage and no benefits so far as I understand. The latter also makes up the majority of the work force.

***************

So what to do to resolve the various concerns?

My suggestions:

Convenience and Product Selection: Allow VQA stores, similar to BC that would sell only Ontario Wine, about 250 of them (new) + allow existing grandfathered Ontario wine stores to sell the full VQA range (instead of only their own product).

Gently nudge the LCBO to open a few more 'boutique' stores in urban areas.

Allow a few more 'agency' stores in under-served areas.

Change the regulations to allow retail liquor sales after 6pm on a Sunday.

Enlarge LCBO beer selection, with a focus on micro-brews and product not available through The Beer Store.

**

Allow the equivalent of VQA stores for Ontario-Brewed Microbeer.

Test convenience stores sales, but limit the number of stores to 250 province-wide for now, with the requirement they participate in deposit/return.

Total: 500 new beer-buying locations.

***********

Price: Abolish the minimum price for beer (currently about $28 on a 24) and replace it with a simple rule, Thou Shall not sell Below Cost. This is the rule in New Brunswick.

While the LCBO will tell you it doesn't have a minimum price per say, it does have a 'de facto' minimum price. Ditch the 'socially responsible' nonsense and direct the LCBO to carry wine as cheap as $5 per bottle where it makes economic sense to do so.

Next, keep the percentage of price taxes on beer and wine, but eliminate the volume-based taxes. These have a disproportionate affect on low-price products. ie. 30c per Litre of wine, or .24c per bottle has a more noticeable effect at $7.00 per bottle wine vs say $23.00 per bottle wine.

Right now there is a rule that Ontario wineries and wine stores can NOT by law under-price the LCBO on an identical product. This rule should be removed.

Finally, add a bulk-buy policy similar to many U.S. wine stores where buying wine by the case gets you a 10% discount.

By charging for the additional retail licenses, plus a sales boost, most lost revenue should be recoverable; if not, hike HST 1% that would do it cleanly.

*****

That's my 2 cents.

About later hours: One issue I do believe that could come up is that people could go to a store already drunk overnight and get more drunk.

To prevent that, I do recommend that sales of alcohol not be permitted from 12 am to 7 am. Municipalities should have the power to make further restrictions (i.e. shorter hours, no sales on some holidays) if they so chose and passed by-laws for such.

As for the revenue lost, it should be done by cutting wasteful spending. For instance, corporate welfare (billions) and reducing the Sunshine List (billions).

Bottle return
 

For deposit and return, in Nova Scotia it is privatized as bottle depots. They pay a dollar a dozen and take the 20 cents for cost. They are set up away from the NSLC and don't clutter or slow down the service. Also allow for more inside the mall locations for the beer store.

Yes.
To avoid the beer store (lousy prices, lousy hours/service, scarce locations, horrid stackouts of steer-piss like Bud light lime)...Labatt/molson love the arrangement as it is hugely profitable for them as owners.

Why is it that Quebeckers can be trusted with beer/wine in corner/grocery stores, yet Ontarians need to be coddled?

one of the worst things about ontario.

You need a little bit of beer in you to build up the nerve to drive on a highway in Quebec.

It'll eventually happen. God knows when but 2 impediments are the profitable monopoly it's created and unions.

it's depressing to think that after 6 p.m. on a Sunday I'd have an easier time scoring crack than a six pack or a bottle of wine.

I just wish alcohol was a municipal issue in Canada and not a provincial one.

^indeed. I can't stand the banker's hours of the beer store. Only seems to be open for business during most people's working hours. Closes at 6pm (or even 5pm) many evenings. WTF!?!?!?!?

In rural towns, many are closed on Sunday and open only until 6 pm other days of the week. And the union (which is politically well to the left of the NDP) blocks them from getting an agency store.

There does seem to be a "teetotaler" mentality behind the situation in Ontario as well.

For example, my part of the city of Gatineau has five government-owned SAQ liquor stores (wine and spirits), whereas across the river in Ontario, the Ottawa suburb of Orleans has two LCBO stores only. Both areas have almost the exact same population: just over 100,000.

Orleans also has two places to buy beer (Beer Stores)... for 100,000 people. Whereas in Gatineau, every corner store and grocery store sells beer (and wine), so the number of actual retailers is probably close to 50.

So there is definitely a controlling "nanny state" element to it as well.

you guys will definitely eventually get this, and you'll like it. it just makes things easier and reduces the need for scheduling.

beer is a serendipitous thing.

from my recent toronto trip:

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/...6-12182150.jpg

There beer stores here are open until 9pm-10pm. But then, this being Thunder Bay, they kind of need to be.

All the Beer Stores around me are open late too, and usually not very busy.

I still hate the Beer Store, for ensuring that I don't a very good selection of anything but Molson and Labatt products.