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-   -   Controversial Idea: The US as (Anglo-)Canada's Mother Country? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=240642)

Architype Oct 15, 2019 10:58 PM

Both countries have influenced each other but with the influence being greater from the US because of their overwhelmingly larger population and world influence. To say that the entire world has been under American influence for more than half a century is an understatement. But to say that they are our motherland is a gross misunderstanding; both cultures, originally offshoots of European culture, have evolved into a North American culture. Considering this, it was still a bit eye opening to see the reaction to Andrew Scheer's dual citizenship "crisis". Is Celine Dion a dual citizen?

SpongeG Oct 15, 2019 11:09 PM

I think it's different when it's a politician and potential leader of a country when they have dual citizenship and especially when his party has been outspoken on the issue in the past.

I find more differences in Canada between west and east. When I moved to Ontario for a couple years in the early 90s for school I felt it to be very American, BC didn't have that American vibe going on.

Even the differences between BC and Alberta stand out to me, Ukrainians and Russians, Germans etc their influences in Alberta are quite strong, whereas I find BC influences to be more British. Perogies and Sausage are easily found on menus in Alberta for example, and Fish & chips or Roast Dinner is popular on BC menus.

urbandreamer Oct 15, 2019 11:39 PM

Anglos, quite literally those of English descent are still closer to England than the USA. What you call allophones, if applied to the ROC: yes I would agree are more influenced by America.

I'm half American yet I still get most of my mainstream news from the BBC.

Earlier this year I read an interesting book about the Scots who built Montreal: (controversial idea) Montreal is the most British large city in North America.

The American revolution was really a Scots Irish rebellion.

I agree Vancouver and Vancouver Island feel more upper class English than anything between Ontario and BC; in Ontario, Barrie and London feel very English to me.

re: Empire Loyalists. Consider the context: Montreal was really their "mother" city, the largest city closest to them. Read COMPTON IN RETROSPECT: 1880-1950 - the English (often Scottish) from Vermont and NH built the eastern townships with trade centered around Montreal. As French Canadians moved in, the Empire Loyalists moved to Toronto, Winnipeg, Vancouver.

Northern Light Oct 15, 2019 11:44 PM

I have to say I'm not buying it.

I would actually take issue w/the notion that Canada has grown to be more like the United States.

I would suggest we've become LESS like the United States in the last 4 decades in particular.

***

If one examined religiosity in society; Canada used to be far more religious.

Today, Canada is not only relatively secular across the nation; but in fact much more so than the United States.

This owes in part to the lesser presence and influence of evangelical Christians in Canada who are less than 10% where the U.S. number is 35%

**

Lets consider the constitution; sure we went 'codified' as is normative throughout much of the world these days........

But we didn't merely exclude a right to bear arms; we excluded property rights.

We chose to include equalization payments to the provinces; something with which there is no U.S. parallel.

We have also seen a vastly different Canadian Supreme Court than its U.S. counterpart, not merely in demeanour, selection process or broad societal endorsement..........but in the means of interpreting the constitution itself as a 'living tree'; rather than the U.S. emphasis on 'founding fathers'.

Our court has made decisions you have not seen nor are likely to see in the U.S. not merely on gay rights, but on assisted dying, marijuana, prostitution, and the rights of first nations.

When one examines views towards immigrants; its not merely than Canadians are more tolerant or welcoming; but how much 'race' is not an issue to the degree it is in the U.S., at least in most parts of Canada.

I would again suggest this has marked a clear shift from the Canada of the past; but also from the present U.S. with the trend lines in opposite directions.

Canada is certainly not the polar opposite of the United States; but nor is it all that similar.

So many aspects of cultural difference seem to pass unnoticed in day to day life; but would strike you clearly from afar.

At the same time, I don't think of Britain as a singular 'mother country' either.

I think Canada is one of handful of nations with diverse parentage and diverse influences.

Canada feels very much like a project of Britain and France with increasing First Nations recognition and influence; but its also influenced both by the United States but also by its very diversity.

I've had the great pleasure to travel outside of Canada and North America a fair bit.

I have to tell you there are so few places that have great Italian Food, great Thai Food, great Syrian Food, great Punjabi food etc etc. all in one place.

Yes, that's more reflective of Toronto and Vancouver than the country as a whole; but those are the 2 biggest centres in English Canada and that same influence can be seen, albeit in lesser amounts in smaller centres throughout the country.

I would argue the U.S. is not our mother country, Britain was only the more influential co-parent and the country has evolved into new directions no longer linked to those parents or to the U.S. to the south.

CityTech Oct 15, 2019 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbandreamer (Post 8718097)
Anglos, quite literally those of English descent are still closer to England than the USA. What you call allophones, if applied to the ROC: yes I would agree are more influenced by America.

I'm half American yet I still get most of my mainstream news from the BBC.

Earlier this year I read an interesting book about the Scots who built Montreal: (controversial idea) Montreal is the most British large city in North America.

The American revolution was really a Scots Irish rebellion.

I agree Vancouver and Vancouver Island feel more upper class English than anything between Ontario and BC; in Ontario, Barrie and London feel very English to me.

Canadians of Scottish & Irish descent, combined, are more numerous than Canadians of English descent. Most of those of English descent have roots in northern or western England. Very few people in Canada have roots in Southeast England, despite that being the dominant region economically & culturally within the modern day United Kingdom.

I believe this is the case with all of Britain's settler colonies. Of the 15 million people who emigrated from the British Isles in the 19th century, about half were from Scotland or Ireland, despite those regions having much smaller populations than England. The fact that in today's times England is far more densely populated than Scotland or Ireland and dominates the UK population-wise is primary the result of this phenomenon. In 1841, Scotland & Ireland, combined, had about the same population as England; by 1901, England had three times more than both combined.

urbandreamer Oct 16, 2019 12:20 AM

If it wasn't for the Scots and Scots-Irish there would be no America or Canada as we know it today. A good read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_Fighting

Really the dividing line in Canada has been religion not language: Catholic vs Protestant vs non conformist.

someone123 Oct 16, 2019 1:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northern Light (Post 8718102)
Yes, that's more reflective of Toronto and Vancouver than the country as a whole; but those are the 2 biggest centres in English Canada and that same influence can be seen, albeit in lesser amounts in smaller centres throughout the country.

It's true that we tend to focus on pop culture and media but these are only one small part of life.

It's hard to generalize about the two countries but when it comes to food I think the average American has a more "whitebread" palate than the average Canadian. There is a much higher prevalence of diner style food and bland processed food south of the border. This definitely holds in the Pacific Northwest and Midwest vs. Ontario.

Another really interesting area is architecture. Canadian cities were building copies of European-style buildings up until the late 1800's or so, at which point American styles became more popular. Richardsonian Romanesque is an example of an American style.

These days, in terms of architecture, I think Canadian cities are diverging more and more from American cities. Toronto is not really developing like a Midwestern city, Vancouver is not that similar to the US West Coast, and development in Halifax is nothing like the New England cities.

Loco101 Oct 16, 2019 1:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpongeG (Post 8718068)
I think it's different when it's a politician and potential leader of a country when they have dual citizenship and especially when his party has been outspoken on the issue in the past.

I find more differences in Canada between west and east. When I moved to Ontario for a couple years in the early 90s for school I felt it to be very American, BC didn't have that American vibe going on.

Even the differences between BC and Alberta stand out to me, Ukrainians and Russians, Germans etc their influences in Alberta are quite strong, whereas I find BC influences to be more British. Perogies and Sausage are easily found on menus in Alberta for example, and Fish & chips or Roast Dinner is popular on BC menus.

It depends which part of Ontario. Southwestern Ontario seems to have the most American influence. Northern Ontario doesn't really at all except for maybe somewhat in a few places right on the border.

Architype Oct 16, 2019 1:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8718182)
...

Another really interesting area is architecture. Canadian cities were building copies of European-style buildings up until the late 1800's or so, at which point American styles became more popular. Richardsonian Romanesque is an example of an American style.

These days, in terms of architecture, I think Canadian cities are diverging more and more from American cities. Toronto is not really developing like a Midwestern city, Vancouver is not that similar to the US West Coast, and development in Halifax is nothing like the New England cities.

But our cities today are more like American cities than like European cities, we still have a century of North American style development. However I see this as a natural result of developing a new continent, and not as something originating entirely from the US.

LakeLocker Oct 16, 2019 2:39 AM

The elephant in the room is that we are both Anglo-Americans.

Canadians dislike the term because there is no form of "Canadian" in that phrase because overall the term is a huge lie. Canada never has and never will exist in reality. The French Anglo divide in this country isn't a lovers quarrel it's a fact that hasn't changed in 250 years.

Americans dislike the term because they are obsessed with the idea they are some unique nation not remotely attached to a "anglo" tradition. One of my favorites is the popular use of the term "western culture/civilization". Americans fetish the idea that they have just as much in common with Germans, Italians and Spaniards as they do Brits. The reality is an American is no closer to German culture than an American, and latino's wouldn't stand out if the US had a stronger Mediterranean heritage.

We're Anglo Americans plain and simple.

someone123 Oct 16, 2019 2:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Architype (Post 8718213)
But our cities today are more like American cities than like European cities, we still have a century of North American style development. However I see this as a natural result of developing a new continent, and not as something originating entirely from the US.

I was trying to get at the idea that the trend hasn't been for Canada to move inexorably closer and closer to the United States. Structurally I think Canadian cities were closer to American cities in 1900 than they are today in 2019. Partly that's just because bigger and wealthier cities (and countries or cultures) become more differentiated.

Since 1900 many of the major urban development phenomena have played out differently in the two countries. White flight and school issues (which we don't think about much in Canada), urban renewal, highway construction, modern transit, segregation of uses and development of central business districts, gentrification and urban infill.

Northern Light Oct 16, 2019 2:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeLocker (Post 8718249)
The elephant in the room is that we are both Anglo-Americans.

Except for the fact you've made that up and it isn't particularly true; that statement is otherwise fine.

Quote:

Canada never has and never will exist in reality.
This explains much about your posts and their anti-Canadian bias and the fact you clearly aren't one of us. I don't know that you would fit in anywhere else, but feel free to give it a try.

Northern Light Oct 16, 2019 2:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8718264)
I was trying to get at the idea that the trend hasn't been for Canada to move inexorably closer and closer to the United States. Structurally I think Canadian cities were closer to American cities in 1900 than they are today in 2019.

Since 1900 many of the major urban development phenomena have played out differently in the two countries. White flight and school issues (which we don't think about much in Canada), urban renewal, highway construction, modern transit, segregation of uses and development of central business districts, gentrification and urban infill.

No worries; you made your point well; and you're entirely correct.

hipster duck Oct 16, 2019 2:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8718182)
These days, in terms of architecture, I think Canadian cities are diverging more and more from American cities. Toronto is not really developing like a Midwestern city, Vancouver is not that similar to the US West Coast, and development in Halifax is nothing like the New England cities.

[English] Canada and America are rapidly diverging - or at least as rapid a divergence as one could imagine in an era of the internet, globalization and given all the other things we share.

On the urbanization front, this is obvious, as you mention: 25 years ago, the average Canadian 30-something would buy a suburban tract house for their starter home just like their American peers. American millennials still buy suburban tract homes en masse; Canadian millennials - if they can buy at all - live in condo neighbourhoods which are quite different even from the new-build midrise rental apartment neighbourhoods that their millennial professsional counterparts in the more expensive coastal American cities would live in if they can afford decent housing.

The other, huge difference is the presence of Hispanics/Spanish in the US, which is essentially nonexistent in Canada. The Spanish/Hispanic influence is enormous; basically the only thing close to it is the presence of all Chinese languages and cultures combined in Metro Vancouver, and even there it feels like a smaller, more scattered presence than in the more Hispanic metros of the US. The effect this is having even on white American culture is enormous; if you go to a house in the US for a football party, you're served chips and salsa and most Americans have a lexicon of Mexican foods that would completely stump your average Canadian (most Americans of all classes and backgrounds know the difference between an enchilada, a gordita and a chimichanga). Then there are Anglo Americans in lines of work like construction, social work and agricultural management who have mastered Spanish to a level beyond the French capabilities of an Ontarian who took French Immersion to at least grade 10.

I did some comparisons between the 2011 census versus the 2010 American census, and I found that there were about 200,000 Canadians who had Latin American origins - or fewer than the Hispanic population of Metro Sacramento, CA.

LakeLocker Oct 16, 2019 3:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck (Post 8718272)
[English] Canada and America are rapidly diverging - or at least as rapid a divergence as one could imagine in an era of the internet, globalization and given all the other things we share.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck (Post 8718272)
On the urbanization front, this is obvious, as you mention: 25 years ago, the average Canadian 30-something would buy a suburban tract house for their starter home just like their American peers. American millennials still buy suburban tract homes en masse; Canadian millennials - if they can buy at all - live in condo neighbourhoods which are quite different even from the new-build midrise rental apartment neighbourhoods that their millennial professsional counterparts in the more expensive coastal American cities would live in if they can afford decent housing.

This only applies if you pretend places outside of Toronto/Vancouver don't exist. Large metros are typically an exception to the trends found nation wide in either country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck (Post 8718272)
The other, huge difference is the presence of Hispanics/Spanish in the US, which is essentially nowhere in Canada. The Spanish/Hispanic influence is enormous; basically the only thing close to it is the presence of all Chinese languages and cultures combined in Metro Vancouver, and even there it feels like a smaller, more scattered presence than in the more Hispanic metros of the US.

Again this would make sense if you assume that Sunbelt America is similar to midwestern America. Seatle to Vancouver and Chicago to Toronto are better comparisons of what is and isn't American about our culture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck (Post 8718272)
I did some comparisons between the 2011 census versus the 2010 American census, and I found that there were about 200,000 Canadians who had Latin American origins - or fewer than the Hispanic population of Metro Sacramento, CA.

And you'd likely find similar trends existing in the American MidWest. I don't think anyone is arguing that Anglo-Americans are monolithic. Every region has its own unique subculture.

hipster duck Oct 16, 2019 3:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeLocker (Post 8718281)
This only applies if you pretend places outside of Toronto/Vancouver don't exist. Large metros are typically an exception to the trends found nation wide in either country.

Greater Toronto and Vancouver alone are 10 million people, or just under 40% of English Canada. Cities like Victoria, Ottawa, the Alberta cities, Halifax, etc. are not as ridiculous in terms of their housing prices, but they aren't "cheap", either. The condo market in those places absorbs a lot of the new home starts/growth.

Sure, the average RN in Cornwall can probably afford to buy a detached new-build bungalow, the same as her counterpart in Utica, NY, but this represents a fraction of Canada.

Quote:

Again this would make sense if you assume that Sunbelt America is similar to midwestern America. Seatle to Vancouver and Chicago to Toronto are better comparisons of what is and isn't American about our culture.

And you'd likely find similar trends existing in the American MidWest. I don't think anyone is arguing that Anglo-Americans are monolithic. Every region has its own unique subculture.
No, the presence of Spanish and Hispanics/Latin Americans is everywhere in the US. On the east coast, more people are of Carribean origins, but there are huge populations in almost all major northern cities. 22.1% of Chicago's MSA is Hispanic - that's 2 million people. Where there isn't a huge Hispanic presence, there is a huge black presence, which is also markedly different from Canada.

Andy6 Oct 16, 2019 3:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8717638)
Depending on how you count, Nova Scotia was either the 0th colony, 4th colony, or 11th colony. The 13 colonies weren't the oldest British colonies, they were the ones that participated in the revolution.

Nova Scotia already had an elected assembly by the time of the American Revolution and voted not to participate.

True, like all the peripheral colonies (Quebec, Bermuda, Georgia) Nova Scotia was not really on the radar screen of the revolutionary hotheads and, as a less economically mature colony, didn't really have an established hierarchy of men of independent wealth and independent minds who might have been inclined to spearhead a political rebellion. There was also the massive British military presence at Halifax to disincentivize any revolutionaries. On top of that, because the Great Awakening had a very powerful hold on Nova Scotia at the time, religious fervour (rather than the revolutionary kind) consumed the minds of many of its residents, who readily fell under the spell of the great evangelist Henry Alline and his New Light movement.

But other than that there was nothing special about the "13 colonies". They were just the ones that heeded the call. There could have been more or less of them.

someone123 Oct 16, 2019 3:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck (Post 8718291)
Greater Toronto and Vancouver alone are 10 million people, or just under 40% of English Canada. Cities like Victoria, Ottawa, the Alberta cities, Halifax, etc. are not as ridiculous in terms of their housing prices, but they aren't "cheap", either. The condo market in those places absorbs a lot of the new home starts/growth.

I don't follow all of the cities but I know a bit about the Halifax market. Median incomes there are about the same as Vancouver but the median house is around $300,000. The proportion of rental construction there is very high (maybe 60%, always over 50% when I've looked), and there are lots of nice rental buildings with features like rooftop swimming pools. There are a lot of people there who rent urban apartments but could buy a suburban tract home (with only a 20-30 minute commute) if they wanted. There's definitely an important difference in development styles and preferences between Halifax and probably any US metro.

It's a lot like how if you make a list of metros with transit use or cycling and pedestrian commuters you get a list that includes cities like Boston and San Francisco mixed in with Victoria and Halifax. You don't see cities like Eugene or Charleston on those lists.

Andy6 Oct 16, 2019 3:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 8718264)
I was trying to get at the idea that the trend hasn't been for Canada to move inexorably closer and closer to the United States. Structurally I think Canadian cities were closer to American cities in 1900 than they are today in 2019. Partly that's just because bigger and wealthier cities (and countries or cultures) become more differentiated.

Certainly the personal and family ties between Canada and the U.S. were considerably closer in 1900 than they are today. Just thinking of my own 5 great-grandparents who were Canadian born (mainly in the 1850s) or came here before marriage, each of them had at least one sibling who moved to the United States, and all but one had several. I think that was true of almost everyone in Canada back then -- even in French Canada, where most people would have had a sister or an aunt in Woonsocket or Pawtucket or some place like that. Today that is less common other (perhaps) than among upper class people with siblings in the professional classes.

LakeLocker Oct 16, 2019 3:39 AM

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