The Brightline Thread
 

Jacksonville-based FEC has just announced they are moving forward with developing their own statewide passenger rail service between Orlando and Miami. They plan to have it up and running by 2014 before expanding it to Tampa and Jacksonville.

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...ographic-L.jpg

Full article: http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...-Plans-Private

This is great news. What kind of speeds is FEC planning on? Unfortunately I doubt it will be the full 220 mph high speed rail but I'm hoping it will be faster than Amtrak.

The top speed would be 110mph.

full article: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ssenger-trains


I'm guessing that this is a way for them to become a freight player in Orlando and Tampa. Currently, CSX is the only major rail carrier in those metros. This should be big news around the state over the next couple of days, as the details come out.

Interesting proposal to say the least. If it does come to fruition it will probably kill Amtrak's route between Miami & Orlando. I have personally riden the Amtrak route and it takes about 6 hours since they stop at every podunk town in between so this would be a vast improvement.
As for building an extra 40 miles of track between Cocoa & Orlando I wonder if the state and the Orlando Expressway Authority would cede a right of way to the FEC since the SR 528 / Bee Line Expressway is a tolled road.
If it follows the Bee Line route it will obviously connect to the Orlando Airport & continue west until it would eventually intersect with Sunrail whenever that gets down to Orlando.

How much track do they currently control? It seems like it would take longer than 2 years to build out that line, with stations.

They already have 200 miles of track in place and in great condition. To get to Orlando, they would need to build 40 miles of track. I assume they'll probably want the median of the BeachLine, which is what the HSR project Rick Scott killed was going to use. That would give them a straight shot right into OIA, International Drive, Sunrail connectivity and Disney. I imagine, this will kill Amtrak's horribly operated service statewide, assuming the two entities don't end up teaming resources for this system (ex. like California's Amtrak corridor operations).

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ssenger-trains

Like all American railroads of a certain age, the FEC once operated passenger trains, too.

Yeah, they basically built Florida a century ago. It appears like their dusting off Henry Flagler's old game plan of using rail infrastructure to spur supporting land development.

Hmm... Financially this is very unusual. It's certainly possible for FEC to recoup their operating costs from ticket sales, but to also recoup $1B in capital expense? That's a very tall order.

It makes me think that FEC will be demanding a grant from the Feds somehow (which requires the Feds to HAVE a grant program...) Maybe Mica will support additional HSR funding if private groups like this step up to operate.

I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm strongly in favor of additional and better rail service for the US and don't really care whether it's Amtrak or private, so long as it interfaces well with the national system. Amtrak has strong institutional inertia and a resistance to change, which is only reinforced by the subsidies they get year after year regardless of their ridership. It sounds like FEC has already committed to providing a good customer experience with frequent service, wifi, and good food.

For years, there has been talk about connecting Orlando to the Port Canaveral area with freight rail services. While this is being billed as passenger rail, there's no reason the track could not be used to get FEC and NS into two major Florida markets (Orlando and Tampa) where CSX is currently the only major player. Over the next few months, we'll find out more about their real game plan but I wouldn't doubt if freight access to Orlando, Tampa, and Port of Tampa is a "side benefit." It also looks like they'll probably want the State to donate the ROW that was set aside for HSR. This should be interesting.

If the track is built to high-speed standards with the possibility of future electrification, that's fine by me.

Something I noticed about the FEC's line looking at maps is that it very directly and conveniently serves the center of all the coastal cities in Florida.

If there was a freight line that could be repurposed for passenger use, that would be it.

This makes a lot more sense than the Tampa to Orlando line proposed a few years ago.

Look at the Beeline Expressway using Google Earth or another mapping program. It's almost straight as an arrow. Building within the median of the tollway would require grade separation, at least on the new tracks. So, it'll be perfect for upgrading to HSR operations in the future.
The only real problems I see with using the median of the Beeline is once that corridor reaches Orlando. There's several highway bridges over the Beeline, I assume with concrete pillars in the median holding the overpasses up that the rail line would have to avoid, while at the same time the width of the median shrinks to almost nothing just north of the airport property. Of course, the rail line could leave the median and enter airport property. It'll have to to reach the existing wye just south of the Beeline anyways. I'm just not sure of the geography of that area, if such a rail routing would be possible. Don't forget, freight trains don't like grades, and we all know FEC would also want to run freights over the new line.

Tampa to Orlando, had projected costs over $2 Billion, and was less than 100 miles long. This proposal early projections has projected costs around $1 Billion, and is 240 miles long.

What worries me most about this proposal is the lack of stations between Orlando and West Palm Beach. You would think a station in Melbourne/Coco area would be appropriate, if only to connect to the cruise terminals at Cape Canaveral.

125mph/200kph would be perfect over this distance, the economics would probably skew off the rails (pardon pun). Having trouble finding the main / existing line already in situ to have a look at the type of curvature and the like.... anyone want to help out? lol

Miami-Orlando - what would a potential stopping pattern me?

Miami - For Lauderdale - West Palm Beach - Melbourne - Orlando? Too many stops would slow the service down too much if you go above 125m/200kph top speed trains

Actually found it (mainline) - it's incredibly straight which is conducive to higher-speeds outside the urban areas but three issues I can see just looking at Sat maps:

1) a lot of single track
2) heavily urbanises around the track
3) level crossings galore!

They haven't announced station locations yet. I'm sure there will be a lot more stations along the corridor. The graphic is just for illustrative purposes. Also, the Tampa/Orlando HSR project cost so much because it was HSR. This will be traditional trains at speeds of 110mph using a line where 200 miles of track are already in place. I'm interested to see if it will be strictly long distance intercity rail, corridor service like the Pacific Surfliner, or a mix of both. I'm hoping its a mix of both because Florida needs corridor service moreso than rail that skips past population centers (ex. Daytona, Melbourne, St. Augustine, Lakeland, etc.) between the four major metros.

Yeah...Private Rail! Only a billion dollars for hundreds of miles of rail. Wow! Let me guess...they only need $999 million in public assistance. :rolleyes:

200 of the 240 miles are already in place and used by the FEC for freight service.

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...48_p295A-L.jpg

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...82_XLJso-L.jpg

Many of the cities already have existing stations still remaining in their downtown cores from the time when FEC ran passenger trains (they stopped in 1968). The last 40 miles appear to be state owned ROW in the middle of the Beach Line Expressway, which would connect the FEC directly with Orlando International Airport and Sunrail (now under construction). We're all waiting for more detail but I wouldn't be surprised if the plan calls for the State to let them use the ROW that had been reserved for the HSR project Rick Scott killed last year.

Also, FECI has a real estate development arm called Flagler Development.

http://www.flaglerdev.com/

They operate somewhat different from larger companies like CSX. Don't be surprised if opening additional land up to TOD and industrial development is a part of their long term strategy.

They just hired Eugene Skoropowski out of retirement who ran the Capital Corridor in California to run the operation.

In any event - this proposal is mostly born out of the state republicans desire to privatize Tri-rail and Sunrail.

My understanding is they are going for MotivePower locomotives and Bombardier Bi-Level coaches. Top speed 111mph.

That bodes well. The Capital Corridor is extremely well-run by American standards.

Bring it back!

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5299/5...3aab49b2_b.jpg

More "local" stations would be good, I agree. That kind of service should have an "Express" level service (only the big cities) and a "Local" level service (mid-sized cities also served)

Aren't TriRail and SunRail formed for the purpose to provide that "Local" service? Leave FEC to run the more lucrative and profitable "Express" service. It's going to be hard to achieve 3 hours between Miami and Orlando if the "Express" trains have to stop at every station cities might build along the line.
Here's a refresher course for elementary school math:
240 miles / 3 hours = 90 miles/hour average.
240 miles / 4 hours = 60 miles/hour average.
240 miles / 5 hours = 48 miles/hour average.
Note: Amtrak - per their pdf train schedules - takes 5 hours and 3 minutes to traverse 265 rail miles between Orlando and Miami, averaging 53 miles/hour. Some of that is probably schedule padding. Never-the-less, the FEC route is 15 miles shorter, and possibly two hours faster. Much of the time savings will come by having fewer stops along the way, along with going faster.
Amtrak's trains at least stop at *Orlando*, Kissimmee, Winter Haven, Sebring, *West Palm Beach*, Delray Beach, Deerfield Beach, *Fort Lauderdale*, Hollywood, and *Miami*. Four stops vs ten, which do you think will be faster? With ten stops Amtrak averages 26 miles between stations, while with 4 stops FEC would average 60 miles between stations. How far are people willing to drive to catch a train, 30 miles on average or 13 miles?
I suggest having many more stops will just slow the train down. FEC is probably correct limiting station stops to as few as possible to increase average speeds of the trains. Personally, I would like to see another station added near Melbourne for capturing cruise line passengers at Port Canaveral, but that's about it for the "Express" service.
Combining "Express" and "Local" services on the same tracks would require far more passing sidings, more signals, and therefore far more money. I don't think FEC desires to get into the "Local" train business. Having two types of services automatically requires having two train sets. A single train set capable of transversing the route in 3 hours, could make two, possibly three round trips in a day, and still have 6 hours layup time for daily maintenance.

ok

That's funny. If it really average 90mph, that would be faster than Acela! So much for America's premier rail service:yuck:

I would have preferred if they electrified the line though. Diesel trains are so yesterday. If they electrified the rail they could have run tilting trains at 125-150 mph.

Florida gets hit by hurricanes fairly often. As is, FEC closes up when hurricanes are predicted to hit shore. Can you imagine taking months to resort service replacing downed power lines every time. With diesel locomotives, you don't need to wait for replacing downed power lines. Just waiting for the tracks to be cleared of fallen trees is already long enough.

Good point, but so does Taiwan and Southern China. It hasn't stopped them. I don't buy that excuse. Come on now!

Anyway, if it really averages 90 with a top speed of 110mph, that is impressive for a diesel service! The tracks must be straight as an arrow if it can do this with few curves to slow it down. 3 hours is a decent time to compete with a plane. I assume the flight would be around 40mins or so.

They need to bring the train into downtown Miami though to make it convenient.

Yes, this is world fastest train. I like more speed. How about 300mph? Can they do that?

?

Are you OK? World's fastest train in Florida? HAHAHAHA

NO, it requires MAGLEV for that. This is America, where they can't even get a regular High Speed rail line that France had in the 60's.

Oh yes, I feel fine. I don't have any problem at all but, thanks for your concern.

Don't forget that this is a freight rail company. The goal isn't making a HSR line. It's providing efficient reliable intercity rail service at an affordable cost.

Many of the mainlines in the UK have been doing 125mph/200kph since the 70s.

• Video Link

Power lines get destroyed because trees or buildings fall on them. Power lines or railroad catenary has very little cross-section in the wind, so I doubt there would be much of an issue if the poles have strong foundations and any nearby trees are removed along the line.

You could also use a third-rail system, but that's not a good idea in flood-prone areas for obvious reasons.

What do they average on a similar journey length?

There has got to be more to this than meets the eye.

Then again it is a Florida only service and I doubt the freight companies would take on extra duties if they didn't think they could make some money off of it.

I don't know how much of an effect this will have on influencing companies and governments nationwide though. On the one hand it could show that rail IS viable in America today. On the other it could set up the prerequisite of "100% private or bust". And then what of places that have extensive commuter services that constantly have to haggle with the freight companies.

Sure Japan and the UK do have private service, but they are remnants of an even LARGER public service before, in many cases passenger service would be brand new to the public (as few people take Amtrak outside the Northeast regularly).

Again VERY INTERESTING, but I wanna see some more info..

There's more variables to take into account.

In 2006 I was on the Flying Scotsman (the name historically given to the 10am departure from King's Cross to Edinburgh on the East Coast Mainline) - only stopped at Peterborough, York and Newcastle before Edinburgh. If memory serves me correctly it was 4h and 20 minutes.

The ECML is 632km / 393m long, so the average speed would have been roughly 160kph/100mph

More details:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussio...721261,2722298

Wait, they're not asking for government money? This is amazing.

I don't get how the FEC is a "much larger market" than the Capital Corridor, though. SF Bay + Sacramento have more people than South Florida + Orlando.

My guess is that they are adding up all the mid sized metropolitan areas between the two and the tourist population as well. Florida's East Coast is continuously populated with an assortment of beach communities.

Here are some thoughts on the station locations:

--------
1. Downtown Miami. Link it up with the metrorail, which is currently being expanded to the airport and is almost done iirc. Shuttle buses to the port will connect the cruise ship passengers.

Port of Miami: 4.3m passengers
Miami Intl: 35.7m passengers
--------
2. Fort Lauderdale. Hook it up with the airport and tri-rail and again have shuttle buses to the port, which is very close to the airport.

Port Everglades: 3.7m passengers
Ft. Lauderdale Intl: 22.4m passengers
--------
3. West Palm Beach. Station at airport with tri-rail connection.

Port of Palm Beach: 500k passengers
Palm Beach Intl: 5.9m passengers
--------
4. Cape Canaveral / Port Canaveral

Kennedy Space Center: 1.5m visitors
Port Canaveral: 2.8m passengers
--------
5. Orlando. Station at airport, which is a straight shot along the BeachLine, connect with sunrail.

Orlando Intl: 34.9m passengers
--------
6. Disney World, assuming they are willing to build their own station & tracks. They may even want some of their own trainsets to ferry visitors between Port Canaveral (disney cruise lines), the airport, and Disney world. Definitely a partnership opportunity with Disney.

--------

Lots of potential here, hopefully it's done right.

100% privately built and operated rail service in Florida?

Is this an early April Fools joke?

I thought the Orland to Tampa HSR proposal was silly with unrealistic ridership growth projections. I was pleased to hear the money was reallocated to other areas where it made more sense for rail investment. (And don't bash me on this one -- I take a bus to and from work every day in one of the most auto dependent cities in the country. I support transit when it makes sense, but the Orlando to Tampa was just a political stunt IMHO because the demand was not there to justify the cost. It would make much more sense to connect two city centers that have very strong intercity transit networks. Orlando and Tampa don't even come close to say Chicago and St. Louis.)

But I kinda wish there was federal dollars invested in this one. Here you have a company willing to build and operate the entire thing itself. I wish there was a grant program to reward a rail company for taking such an investment. Maybe offering a 50% subsidy on operating costs or something... my two cents... I'm still in shock over this proposal.

No way is this going to be profitable. Passenger rail needs public funding for a reason. The reason Amtrak exists in the first place is because Nixon bailed the freight rail companies (CSX, UP, BNSF) by releasing them of passenger rail obligation. I can't imagine this venture surviving more than a couple of years. This is Florida's pitiful attempt to spit at Obama but with major fail written all over it. Can't wait for Obama and Amtrak to tell them "told you so" when Florida finds out privatized passenger rail cannot survive.

:shrug: Well whatever Amtrak is doing down here is not working either. 2 daily departures from Miami, one of which takes 7 hours to reach Orlando.

Whether it's public or private, I'm just glad someone is stepping up to the plate.

FEC is also working with Amtrak and FDOT to have Amtrak operate on this corridor between Jax and Miami by 2015. This is setting up to be a huge money maker for FEC. Don't under estimate the amount of freight and real estate revenue they stand to profit.

New high-speed rail effort won't preclude train service on Treasure Coast
 

New high-speed rail effort won't preclude train service on Treasure Coast


By Henry A. Stephens
Treasure Coast Palm
April 18, 2012

"Treasure Coast officials and Amtrak supporters. who have been working for about 13 years to bring passenger service back to the Florida East Coast Railway, say they don't see All Aboard Florida as a threat.

"We're pleased to hear about All Aboard Florida," Amtrak Government Affairs Director Thomas "Todd" Stennis told his company's supporters last month. "Passenger rail is truly beneficial for everyone. The (All Aboard) and Amtrak projects are different projects with different interests. Both operations will benefit everyone on the FEC corridor."

His comments followed the announcement from Florida East Coast Industries, a Coral Gables real estate and transportation company affiliated with the Jacksonville-based railway, of plans to start an estimated $1 billion private passenger service that would cater to business travelers and tourists going between Orlando and South Florida with no stops in between..."

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2012/apr/...reclude-train/

FEC's ridership study will be complete next month. If it proves what they believe, construction will start next year. Also, it appears it will have four to five stops tops between Miami and Orlando.

full article: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ssenger-trains

FEC has decided to move forward. Construction will start in a couple of months.

full article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8771MS20120808

And so begins the grand experiment. I'll take any rail service improvement in the Sunbelt, public or private. At the very least, it will prove or disprove the existence of a market for rail travel.