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VIA Discussion Thread

I couldn't find a VIA discussion thread in the general Canada section but wanted to put this here.

What does the future hold for public inter-city rail in Canada?

VIA seems strong for it's Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor services. However it also appears unable to solve it's own problems - increasing delays due to freight traffic, older rail stock, lack of capital investment - as governments don't fund the system the way other countries do.

It seems that governments everywhere are at best indifferent to the inter-city rail and at worst actively trying to destroy it with slow erosion of funding or piece-meal funding that never was designed to solve any real problems with the network in the first place.

With transit issues taking centre stage nationally in most major cities, is it time to rethink interurban rail in Canada? While vestigial historic routes may not make sense anymore, corridor service, Calgary to Edmonton and a few other options certainly can with the right funding and prioritization.

Will we ever see a rail renaissance in Canada?

The Quebec City-Windsor corridor is well suited to passenger rail and is worthy of government investment. All other intercity passenger railway services should either become privatized tourist trains or government-operated/contracted essential service trains (basically the ones in remote and northern regions).

The VIA system west of Toronto and east of Quebec is an outdated joke and the cost of bringing it into the 21st century could never be justified by the returns.

VIA is pursuing a P3 investor deal to build its own dedicated track in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor to speed up travel times and remove freight interference--a project that is expected to cost $3B:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketphish (Post 7094846)

Via Rail seeks public-private partnership to fund Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal project

Canadian Press
Published on: June 30, 2015 | Last Updated: June 30, 2015 11:28 AM EDT

Via Rail is attempting to attract money from institutional investors like the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec to help generate private investments worth $3 billion for its railway infrastructure.

The Crown corporation expressed its desire to start a public-private partnership to improve its rails and increase the train frequency between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.

On Tuesday morning, Via Rail president Yves Desjardins-Siciliano outlined the company’s strategy and outlined its recent successes in other parts of the country.

Aside from the Caisse de dépôts, other institutions like the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan and Omers have shown interest in Via Rail’s project.

Desjardins-Siciliano said he expects the money is available within Canada’s private sector but will welcome interest from foreign investors during the coming months.

Via Rail said the railways’ use by several companies transporting merchandise is having a negative effect on the rails because of increased traffic.

Between 2010 and 2014, the number of people using Via Rail’s services dropped from 4.1 million to 3.8 million. The company’s deficit reached $317 million.

http://montrealgazette.com/business/...ntreal-project

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketphish (Post 7094849)

Via seeks faster service on Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor

Michael Prentice, OBJ
Published on July 13, 2015

Ottawa will be a big winner if Via Rail is successful in its bid to raise $3 billion in private funding to improve train service in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor, OBJ has learned.

Most of Via’s proposed improvements would be on the line between Ottawa and Toronto, Via president Yves Desjardins-Siciliano said in an exclusive interview recently.

Via's chief executive appears optimistic the government-owned passenger rail company will raise the money required to improve service between Montreal and Toronto and turn the corridor from a money-loser into a profitable venture.

Under Via’s proposed improvements, travel time between Ottawa and Toronto would be slashed to as little as two hours and 30 minutes, making it competitive with flying and much faster than travelling by car or bus. Currently, the fastest trains between the two cities take almost four hours.

Train service along the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor is now slow and infrequent. Via says it loses $48 for each passenger it carries on the route – a sum covered by the federal government in its annual subsidy to Via of about $300 million.

Mr. Desjardins-Siciliano believes he can make service profitable in the corridor by slashing journey times and doubling the number of trains.

Right now, rail service linking Canada’s three largest eastern cities operates in a triangle, rather than a corridor. But if Via’s ambitious plans are successful, trains will speed between Montreal and Toronto, with a stop in Ottawa, in as little as three hours and 50 minutes.

The journey time between Ottawa and Montreal would be cut to about one hour and 20 minutes, about 30 minutes faster than the current fastest time. The rail link between downtown Ottawa and downtown Montreal would be faster than taking a car, bus or even a plane, taking check-in times into account.

Via is now in discussions with major investors – notably pension funds – in the hope of persuading them to invest in the proposed service improvements.

We’re now well into the 21st century, so why is Via considering $3 billion in service improvements that will still only put us in the 20th century?

Super-high-speed trains, such as those in Europe and Japan, would cost billions of dollars in government subsidies, and few if anyone in Canada wants to pay for them. Via estimates it would cost at least $9 billion to introduce super-high-speed trains serving Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto.

One of the company’s biggest problems is that it has to share tracks – which are often old and dilapidated – with freight trains.

Under Via’s proposed improvements, $2 billion would be spent on new tracks or renovations to existing tracks. Most of the rest would be spent on doubling the fleet of trains that serve the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto routes. Via would have exclusive use of about 25 per cent of all track on the corridor.

Via estimates these improvements would enable it to operate the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto routes with an annual profit of about 15 per cent. That profit would then be shared between Via and the private investors.

Via has not yet indicated how such profits, if any, would be shared with investors. Mr. Desjardins-Siciliano told OBJ he expects the partners to get “a handsome return on their investment.”

Canadian taxpayers also stand to gain, he said, since he expects profitability in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor to “eliminate a chunk of the federal subsidy.”

A big reason super-high-speed train service is so expensive is that it requires exclusive use of track, with no railroad crossings, added Mr. Desjardins-Siciliano.

He estimated it would take 12 to 15 years to implement the plan. The improvements proposed by Via can be introduced gradually, he said.

If investors are found and if the federal government approves Via’s plans, service improvements could begin within 18 months to two years after that, the Via chief told OBJ.

http://www.obj.ca/Local/2015-07-13/a...nto-corridor/1

VIA should manage Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal routes and pursue the P3, since Ontario and Quebec would never sit down at the table and negotiate an interprovincial agreement.

Corridor services in Ontario and Quebec outside of Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal exist wholly within each province and should be run/managed by the provinces themselves. I would like to see an expanded GO take over anything southwest of Toronto. I think a Quebec equivalent could do the same for the Montreal-QC run. VIA could not be more disinterested in the Toronto-Kitchener-London or Toronto-Hamilton-Niagara routes, even though those 2 routes have a population density similar to Japan.

Any future passenger rail within Alberta should be run by that province.

Northern routes to remote communities should be run by the communities, themselves, with subsidies from the appropriate Federal/provincial ministry (Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, etc.).

The Canadian, Skeena and the Atlantic can be privatized as tourist trains.

What's VIA? never seen it in these parts...

Regarding the Corridor, would it make sense to run it as an interprovincial compact? Meaning that it is federally run, but funded by those in southern Ontario and southern Quebec through dedicated taxes?

That way, they would be able to fund a large scale system without interference or jealousy, while areas with no service wouldn't have to fund it. The fact it includes 2 provinces makes a provincial operation impossible.

Regarding Toronto-Niagara and Toronto-London(-Windsor), they have less ridership for sure but provide useful international connections. Maybe include a timed transfer to Amtrak (i.e. debark the Ontario train, go through customs at Niagara Falls or Windsor, then go onto the Amtrak train)?

Agreed that single-province lines outside the Corridor should be under provincial operation, or contracted to the private sector as tourist trains.

Better system, lower price - or else, most people are going to take MEGABUS.

I'm curious - what are the average subsidies per passenger on each line (or does any line make a net profit)?

I've never taken a VIA train in my life. Why? Because it's consistently the most expensive, inconvenient mode of travel. Probably time to go ahead and do something about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashok (Post 7096614)

Better system, lower price - or else, most people are going to take MEGABUS.

VIA is already more popular than Megabus on the Toronto-Kingston-Montreal route and that's even with the current state of VIA.

Canadians (or at least, Ontarians) may not have the rail bias/bus stigma Americans do when it comes to rapid transit... but by god, they sure as hell do when it comes to intercity transit. Lots of business travellers, families travelling, etc. who would take the train but wouldn't be caught dead on a Greyhound or Megabus...

As a student, I regularly take Greyhound between Ottawa and Montreal and I thoroughly dislike every minute of it. Everything from the service to the traffic to the horrible sound and smell of the bus... you just feel dirty after two hours of it.

I take the train whenever I can, but there are two big problems;

Frequency
There's a bus almost every hour from 7am to 10pm with some earlier and later departures to boot. The train has about six daily departures with none past 6pm. There's just not enough flexibility to make the train a viable option most of the time. The goal should be to attain hourly service from 7am to 8pm with some early and later departures.

Price
Taking the train is expensive. $79 for a 200km trip?! Only at its super-discount price does it start to make sense ($30) and it's never a competitive option for families or groups. I think that there are a whole bunch of big and little things VIA could do to reduce its cost without sacrificing anything important: things like the number of staff on the train (we don't need two per train, let alone two per car), the number at the station (we don't need to have our tickets checked three times, nor do we require a FREE bag check), the size of the trains (with executive track, we MUST allow VIA to run inexpensive and quick DMU trains). The goal should be to become competitive with the price of driving (max $40 for Ottawa-Montreal, $80 for Ottawa-Toronto, etc.) with group tickets and better offerings for students. There should also be agreements with transit agencies to accept VIA tickets both before and after a trip.

VIA could become the obvious mode of transportation in the Corridor. Speed helps, but I think that there needs to be much more work for frequency and price if we want to get it there.

I suspect VIA's future might be better off focusing less on coast to coast service, and instead it should focus on smaller sections. The QC to Windsor stretch is, as others said, the most profitable line in Canada but beyond that, it's all a joke.

While maintaining Coast to Coast service should (or should it?) be maintained, they should look into other potential corridors and get routes going that way.

Edmonton to Calgary, Moncton to Halifax, Saint John to Moncton, and similar short stretches should be their focus; building up reliable service between them so that they are valid alternatives to plane or automobile. Once they can get those routes profitable (or at least not geysering money), they can look to expand further, buying their own track and/or expanding lines to places where track was removed (like Fredericton).

They should also look to work more with Amtrak to make more US connection routes.

^ The problem is that the rail infrastructure between many of those places is so shoddy that you can't start up rail service without a multibillion dollar investment. Edmonton and Calgary being the prime example... there are basically just country branch lines connecting the two.

If there already was a east-west style main line like you see between Edmonton-Saskatoon or Calgary-Regina it would be a breeze, but any kind of competitive rail passenger service between Calgary and Edmonton will need an entirely new set of rails at tremendous expense.

That is sadly the main hold back. There are a lot of logical places where we should have passenger rail service (if not HSR service), but the rail network has rotted or was never made in the first place, that it is financially impossible to build it now.

That does make me curious... How the hell did we build the rail networks in the first place? If they are so financially punitive to build now, what made them so viable 100 years ago? Is it because the road and airport networks have made everything so cheap that train isn't viable now or what? (That applies at a local level too; how many cities, small cities even, had Street Car service a century ago, where nowadays many of those cities can barely afford to run a Bus transit network?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taeolas (Post 7097227)

That does make me curious... How the hell did we build the rail networks in the first place? If they are so financially punitive to build now, what made them so viable 100 years ago??)

Two words - Chinese Coolies......

Also, the CPR got a sweet tax deal and oodles of land in the west for their efforts.

^ The fact that planes and automobiles didn't exist in the 1800s helped... trains were the main mode of intercity transportation until the early-mid 20th century. And as MonctonRad pointed out, cheap labour (Chinese and otherwise) and generous government incentives helped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eternallyme (Post 7096743)

I'm curious - what are the average subsidies per passenger on each line (or does any line make a net profit)?

Look at the annual report for 2014 at http://www.viarail.ca/en/annual-report-2014.

As you can see there are no lines that make a profit when all costs including overhead are fully allocated but excluding capital costs and taxes. The subsidy per passenger km ranges from $0.21/km to $4.77/km. It is likely that the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal routes come close to making an operating profit. It is interesting to note that the Toronto - Niagara Falls route has one of the highest subsidies per passenger km as a result of low ridership caused by low frequencies, low speeds and low reliability. By re-installing the double track, increasing frequency and using DMU's the net equipment cost could be reduced as the equipment would be able to do several round trips in a day. Unfortunately reliability would only be somewhat increased due to delays crossing the Welland Canal during shipping season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7097215)

Canadian Pacific's Calgary Edmonton route is not any shoddier than CN and CP's east-west mainline. Just as the mainline's have centralized train control so does the Calgary - Edmonton line. The main problem for passenger service is frequent level crossings and inadequate sidings to ensure higher speed and reliability. It was the frequent level crossing accidents in addition to old and unreliable equipment that was the end of the RDC service provided by Via up until the 80's.

That being said, the quality of the track in addition to the sidings and level crossings is not even adequate for passenger rail traffic moving at the same 80 - 90 mph speeds currently existing in the Toronto - Montreal corridor ignoring true high speed rail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoTrans (Post 7097324)

Inadequate sidings and poor track conditions resulting in low speed limits sounds pretty shoddy to me. Passenger trains can pull 80 mph on the main line, I'd be surprised if it were even 60 on the Calgary-Edmonton route. I didn't realize it was CTC, though, so that's news to me.

But then on top of that you factor in the inability of passenger trains to access downtown Edmonton (I guess Whyte Ave might be a serviceable substitute) and the roundabout route to get into downtown Calgary, and you have a rail service that is pretty much useless.

Rail service between Calgary and Edmonton will not succeed if it simply picks up where the 1985 service left off. It needs a new right of way and new tracks, and I doubt the return is there to justify the immense cost.

There will be a day in the future, probably in the latter part of this century, when fossil fuel scarcity will make intercity (electrified) rail service cost competitive with current air and road options.

We should be planning for that future now, by maintaining rail ROW's throughout the country and by electrifying lines in central Canada now.

The (distant) future of nationwide travel in Canada will be the rail lines. The end of the hydrocarbon era will put pay (eventually) to all the massive airports in the country.

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