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-   -   American Cities and Climate Change: When is Enough, Enough? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=240370)

iheartthed Sep 23, 2019 5:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Belt (Post 8695591)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...n_the_Holocene

If only we had carbon taxes on the continent, 13,000 years ago, we would still have all these wonderful animals --maybe with Quantitative Easing and negative interest rates too, because that's going to literally stop today's Climate Change cold in it's tracks from here on out.

You do realize that human activity was mostly the cause of that extinction event as well, right?

Quote:

Ecological developments
Animal and plant life have not evolved much during the relatively short Holocene, but there have been major shifts in the distributions of plants and animals. A number of large animals including mammoths and mastodons, saber-toothed cats like Smilodon and Homotherium, and giant sloths disappeared in the late Pleistocene and early Holocene—especially in North America, where animals that survived elsewhere (including horses and camels) became extinct. This extinction of American megafauna has been explained as caused by the arrival of the ancestors of Amerindians; though most scientists assert that climatic change also contributed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holoce...l_developments

RCDC Sep 23, 2019 6:09 PM

Typical, the denialists are saying to keep pumping billions into oil subsidies because clean energy would cost too much.

Gantz Sep 23, 2019 7:05 PM

Climate change may cause some economic damage, and some coastal cities will have to invest in new infrastructure (dams, levies, pumps, etc.), but human species won't be going extinct because of 5-10 degree temperature rise, that's just silly. Even if all of the ice melts everywhere, the total habitable global land area will probably stay roughly the same, since right now we have a huge chunk of our surface either completely too cold for human habitation or locked in ice. Nowadays the global average temperature is around 58F, which is entirely too cold regardless, causing most of the humans to live in a narrow habitable band between ~55 degree north and ~55 degree south latitudes.

mhays Sep 23, 2019 7:09 PM

Of course no human extinction. Just famines, mass migration on a level we've never seen before, resulting wars and instability...

Most countries aren't the US where we have a variety of climates to choose from and can probably grow enough food for ourselves regardless.

It's weird that this is a debate. In much of the world people are fighting this and starting to get ready for the effects. Here, the industry stooges are keeping us arguing about whether a threat exists.

pj3000 Sep 23, 2019 7:15 PM

How about those pesky darn emerging tropical diseases which come with a warmer, wetter climate?

Sun Belt Sep 23, 2019 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 8695697)
You do realize that human activity was mostly the cause of that extinction event as well, right?

Small tribes of Indians didn't wipe out North American megafauna 12,700 years ago.

It was a global extinction event.

Gantz Sep 23, 2019 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8695818)
How about those pesky darn emerging tropical diseases which come with a warmer, wetter climate?

Vaccines.
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 8695807)
Of course no human extinction. Just famines, mass migration on a level we've never seen before, resulting wars and instability...

Most countries aren't the US where we have a variety of climates to choose from and can probably grow enough food for ourselves regardless.

It's weird that this is a debate. In much of the world people are fighting this and starting to get ready for the effects. Here, the industry stooges are keeping us arguing about whether a threat exists.

United States, even under Trump, is reducing our CO2 emissions at a faster rate than any other country in the world outside of Europe. Canadians are actually polluting more than us now on a per capita basis. Japanese are pretty much doing nothing. And I am not even talking about the biggest polluters like India and China. We are at the point where we are not even the main contributor to global greenhouse gas emissions anymore. Even if magically the whole United States were to produce 0 greenhouse gas emissions tomorrow, that would only cause a reduction of around 15% from the global levels.

pj3000 Sep 23, 2019 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 8695803)
Nowadays the global average temperature is around 58F, which is entirely too cold regardless...

What does this even mean?

Sun Belt Sep 23, 2019 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 8695807)
Of course no human extinction. Just famines, mass migration on a level we've never seen before, resulting wars and instability...

Most countries aren't the US where we have a variety of climates to choose from and can probably grow enough food for ourselves regardless.

It's weird that this is a debate. In much of the world people are fighting this and starting to get ready for the effects. Here, the industry stooges are keeping us arguing about whether a threat exists.

And the solution? Is there a solution? Or is this just a giant whine fest/blame game?

pj3000 Sep 23, 2019 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 8695821)
Vaccines.

Oh yeah, no prob, we'll just figure all that out. :haha:

We got that whole insect-borne and water-borne disease thing figured out so well as it is!

Steely Dan Sep 23, 2019 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8695818)
How about those pesky darn emerging tropical diseases which come with a warmer, wetter climate?

don't forget about the fucking alligators too.

ahhhhhhhh.......it's already happening!!!!!!!!


Chicago's alligator-on-the-loose, "Chance the Snapper," is finally caught

An alligator was pulled from a pond behind a Michigan junior high school

iheartthed Sep 23, 2019 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Belt (Post 8695819)
Small tribes of Indians didn't wipe out North American megafauna 12,700 years ago.

It was a global extinction event.

Uh, yes, they did. Did you even read the Wikipedia entry that you linked to? The entire point of the Holocene as a distinct ecological period is to mark the expansion of human populations into the Americas, and the resulting mass extinction triggered by it.

Quote:

The Holocene corresponds with rapid proliferation, growth and impacts of the human species worldwide, including all of its written history, technological revolutions, development of major civilizations, and overall significant transition towards urban living in the present. Human impacts on modern-era Earth and its ecosystems may be considered of global significance for future evolution of living species, including approximately synchronous lithospheric evidence, or more recently hydrospheric and atmospheric evidence of human impacts. In July 2018, the International Union of Geological Sciences split the Holocene epoch into three distinct subsections, Greenlandian (11,700 years ago to 8,326 years ago), Northgrippian (8,326 years ago to 4,200 years ago) and Meghalayan (4,200 years ago to the present), as proposed by International Commission on Stratigraphy.[9] The boundary stratotype of Meghalayan is a speleothem in Mawmluh cave in India,[10] and the global auxiliary stratotype is an ice core from Mount Logan in Canada.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene

Gantz Sep 23, 2019 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8695827)
Oh yeah, no prob, we'll just figure all that out. :haha:

We got that whole insect-borne and water-borne disease thing figured out so well as it is!

Umm yes, it is pretty much figured out.

pj3000 Sep 23, 2019 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 8695834)

Shit, Chicago too?! We're done for!

We Don’t Need Alligators in Pittsburgh’: Spate of Reptile Escapes Confounds Police
https://www.wsj.com/articles/we-dont...ce-11560952634

Pittsburgh marks its fourth alligator sighting since May
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/0...since-may.html

https://www.wickedhorror.com/wp-cont...e-1024x576.jpg

Gantz Sep 23, 2019 7:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8695822)
What does this even mean?

Its the combined global average temperature. The average temperature you would experience if you were to randomly get teleported to any point on our planet. All the hot desert, moderate climate, and cold tundra areas average out to around 58F degrees.

pj3000 Sep 23, 2019 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 8695841)
Umm yes, it is pretty much figured out.

Oh, damn. I'm out of a job then. Well, it's been a good 21-year run for me studying tropical medicine and environmental health.


Actually, no. You're fucking wrong.

digitallagasse Sep 23, 2019 7:31 PM

One of the most important aspects of climate change throughout known history of the planet is the rate of change. The climate changing very slowly gives life a chance to adapt and change with it. In geological time frame the rate of change right now is horrifying and far outpacing known past climate change events. Far slower large climate change periods resulted in a major loss of biodiversity at best. Widespread extinction being a major aspect of the fastest changes.

The thought that hey even if things do increase a few degrees no big deal we just relocate of few people and life for people just moves on is insane. Just a few degree change is the difference certain species of plants surviving or not. That happening fast enough those plants don't adapt or have a chance to slowly move where the climate does work for that species. The whole interdependence of those plants and other life in its ecosystem they share the same fate. Note that includes humans. Wait to see enough die offs to fully get everyone's attention and it is already past the point of no return. Also it is not just sea level rise that will cause people to need to move. The world is already loosing its mind over refugees. Now increase that one to two magnitudes and see how things work out.

But it could be said that humans have technology that can save us. Sure but how much is that going to cost and how many does that support. Yeah we can put a person on such a hostile environment as the moon but at what cost and how much population can you support doing as such.

Gantz Sep 23, 2019 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8695853)
Oh, damn. I'm out of a job then. Well, it's been a good 21-year run for me studying tropical medicine and environmental health.


Actually, no. You're fucking wrong.

The reason why some tropical diseases do not get figured out is because there is no money in it. If any diseases start affecting first world countries in any big numbers, they will get figured out.

accord1999 Sep 23, 2019 7:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8695818)
How about those pesky darn emerging tropical diseases which come with a warmer, wetter climate?

In large parts of the world, death rates are higher in cool and cold weather.

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline....403498/gr2.jpg

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...114-0/fulltext

According to Rau (2007), the death peaks in the winter are linked to three main causes of death which are cardiovascular, cerebrovascular, and respiratory diseases. The latter group has the strongest seasonal pattern among all major groups of causes of death (Rau 2007). Cold temperatures have a physiological impact on the human body, and cold temperatures combined with low relative humidity rates are ideal for influenza virus transmission (Lowen et al. 2007). Furthermore, winter brings about behavioural changes that exacerbate respiratory ailments. People are more likely to congregate in heated houses, which increases the risk of droplet transmission of infectious agents (Evans 1991; Glezen and Couch 1997).

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/...Figure_4_E.gif

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/.../54957-eng.htm

pj3000 Sep 23, 2019 7:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 8695849)
Its the combined global average temperature. The average temperature you would experience if you were to randomly get teleported to any point on our planet. All the hot desert, moderate climate, and cold tundra areas average out to around 58F degrees.

Yeah, and that does not correlate with what most humans feel comfortable living in, within the certain latitudes you suggest. It's not like "oohh, it's a little chilly for me. We need to get that global average temp up to at least 65".

That's not how it works.


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