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MichaelRyerson Feb 9, 2011 5:04 PM

Among the most egregious examples of this must be the old Hollywood Cemetery
 
now, of course known as Hollywood Forever. Used to be set back from Santa Monica Boulevard a respectful distance behind a stout block wall now it lies mosty hidden behind a commercial monstrosity of a strip center.


Quote:

Originally Posted by GaylordWilshire (Post 5000265)
:previous:

It's still happening on the major boulevards--compare pics of Sunset around Vine--near the Cinerama--and Wilshire around Fremont Place--with vintage shots and you'll see that property along alot of L.A. streets that used to have plenty of room between curb and building are now built out to the sidewalk. Central L.A.'s suburban years are long gone... I first started driving around L.A. in the early '70s, and the difference between then and now is amazing. Out to the curbs--actually, these days, Los Angeles is... New York.


circa 1965
http://jpg2.lapl.org/theater3/00015874.jpgLAPL


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_zXN_GwdMYMo/TQ...11635%20PM.jpgGoogle Street View


Where once they were prominent along Wilshire, the concrete Fremont Place gateposts are now hard to discern among the commercial jumble.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zXN_GwdMYMo/TQ...11955%20PM.jpgGoogle Street View


MichaelRyerson Feb 9, 2011 5:47 PM

Oh man, ethereal, thanks for that.
 
That was swell. Too short though by a couple of hours. That was my town.



Quote:

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 5016132)
Perhaps this has been posted before...but I don't remember seeing it.

A great little video of Los Angeles in the 1940s.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50353697@N02/4713710016/

The music is wonderful as well.


gsjansen Feb 9, 2011 5:52 PM

this 1910 image looking east across main street, (maybe taken from the roof of the 1st courthouse??), intrigued me. i was drawn immediately to the paris inn which in this photo would have been located at the south east corner of market street and los angeles street

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...CHS-41536?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...CHS-41536?v=hr

as this next image shows, (i definitely know which building this one is taken from!!!!), the paris inn seems to have been replaced with a gas station

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...CHS-12633?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...CHS-12633?v=hr

the paris inn apparently the happiest place to be in america complete with operatic singing waiters

http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics18/00008658.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics18/00008658.jpg

A postcard of the Paris Inn Cafe, "outstanding European cafe of America." The front of the postcard includes photos of the proprietors, I. Pedroli and Bert Rovere.

http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics18/00008597.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics18/00008597.jpg

an operatic moment at the paris inn, (which should always be accompanied by a leek :leek:)
(......ok, maybe not always.......)

http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics40/00039920.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics40/00039920.jpg

gsjansen Feb 9, 2011 6:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Los Angeles Past (Post 5131426)
Hmmm. Now that I really look closely at the Ord map, it looks to me like the Plaza may have originally been west of Main Street after all.

The red arrow on the Ord map points to Wine St. (today's Olvera Street). The present Plaza is located at Wine/Olvera's southern terminus. But that's not where the word "Plaza" is on the Ord map. It's clearly on the other side of Main Street. Where the Plaza is now is a blank space on the Ord map.

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/v...S-6320_mod.jpg
USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-6320?v=hr


Here's an 1873 map of old Los Angeles. Look above and to the right of the Old Plaza Church. It says "Church Plaza." And that just happens to be the exact spot that the word "Plaza" appears on the Ord Map.

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/v...t/ct001794.jpg
Library Of Congress http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gmd/g4364l.ct001794


Granted, that's not the same location as the "Original Plaza" in the 1950 plan map. Clearly, that was intended to be a reconstruction of some sort. But it seems to me now that there is some credible historical basis for the existence of a much older Plaza on the west side of Calle Principal.

-Scott

well scott, it looks like i could be wrong....(the story of my life)

http://www.lanopalera.net/LAHistory/OldPueblo.gif
Source: LAhistory http://www.lanopalera.net/LAHistory/OldPueblo.gif

here's the link to the web site

Probable Location of the Original
Pueblo de la Reina de los Ángeles
on the River Porciúncula


i'm gonna have to agree that the original location of the plaza was north and west of the current location......it's quite an interesting story

austlar1 Feb 9, 2011 7:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 5157920)
That was swell. Too short though by a couple of hours. That was my town.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/50353697@N02/4713710016/

Gee, that is the LA I remember as a child arriving for the first time from Texas with my family on an extended vacation. I still remember vividly the long cab ride from Union Station (arrived on the newly streamlined Sunset Limited) out to a little residential hotel on Wilshire near Westwood. The hotel was the Westwood Manor, now long gone and replaced by a high-rise apartment house. The only high-rise at the time on that stretch of Wilshire was the brand new apartment house at Beverly Glen and Wilshire that used to stand proudly alone in the smoggy skies. Turns out the lonely apartment tower at 10401 Wilshire served as the home of Mike Hammer in the classic film noir "Kiss Me Deadly". I just remember 10401 standing alone and pink in the hazy sky as viewed from the front porch of the Westwood Manor.

Does anybody have a post card shot of the old Westwood Manor Hotel. I would love to see one.

BTW, I think this is about the best thread on SSP. I can just feel the love, affection, exasperation, and devotion every time I check in here.

austlar1 Feb 9, 2011 7:23 PM

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...OS-ANG-MIS-017

I found this picture in the USC collection. I was hoping for a color shot or an aerial view, but this is the place I spent three lovely childhood summers. They catered to families at the time. I have many pleasant memories of those years.

MichaelRyerson Feb 9, 2011 7:27 PM

Ah, my neck of the woods.
 
My father operated a grocery store at the intersection of Burton Way and Doheny Drive. I grew up in that market bagging groceries and riding the delivery trucks. I remember the Westwood Manor. And now we live in Texas. Go figure. I agree about this thread. It would be easy to obsess over. But I won't. No. I won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by austlar1 (Post 5158064)
Gee, that is the LA I remember as a child arriving for the first time from Texas with my family on an extended vacation. I still remember vividly the long cab ride from Union Station (arrived on the newly streamlined Sunset Limited) out to a little residential hotel on Wilshire near Westwood. The hotel was the Westwood Manor, now long gone and replaced by a high-rise apartment house. The only high-rise at the time on that stretch of Wilshire was the brand new apartment house at Beverly Glen and Wilshire that used to stand proudly alone in the smoggy skies. Does anybody have a post card shot of the old Westwood Manor Hotel. I would love to see one.

BTW, I think this is about the best thread on SSP. I can just feel the love, affection, exasperation, and devotion every time I check in here.


gsjansen Feb 9, 2011 8:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by austlar1 (Post 5158089)
http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...OS-ANG-MIS-017

I found this picture in the USC collection. I was hoping for a color shot or an aerial view, but this is the place I spent three lovely childhood summers. They catered to families at the time. I have many pleasant memories of those years.

i have to admit that i am not familiar with the westwood manor, but is that it in the center of this photograph?

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...3-31-ISLA?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...3-31-ISLA?v=hr

austlar1 Feb 9, 2011 8:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 5158094)
My father operated a grocery store at the intersection of Burton Way and Doheny Drive. I grew up in that market bagging groceries and riding the delivery trucks. I remember the Westwood Manor. And now we live in Texas. Go figure. I agree about this thread. It would be easy to obsess over. But I won't. No. I won't.


I have many fuzzy memories of the era. I was just 5, 6, and 7 during those summertime visits. I had relatives living in Westwood. I used to accompany my cousin Alan on his paper route. "Ma Kettle" (Marjorie Maine) was one of his customers. I remember going to her front door with Alan and collecting money from her. I think he threw the Examiner. Was that a morning paper? I also remember going to lots of double features in Westwood with my grandmother. She used to accompany us out to LA and stay down the road at the Miramar in Santa Monica. I think I can remember Red Cars on Santa Monica Blvd. in the vicinity of West Hollywood. Of course, there was Will Wright's for ice cream down in Westwood Village. I learned to love the smell of smog (go figure) from those summer visits during what were probably some of the worst smog years. I thought, at the time, that smog was kind of cool and something I always associated with LA, which was my first Big City. I grew up in Fort Worth and now live in the Austin area.

austlar1 Feb 9, 2011 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsjansen (Post 5158154)
i have to admit that i am not familiar with the westwood manor, but is that it in the center of this photograph?

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...3-31-ISLA?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...3-31-ISLA?v=hr

I believe that might be the Westwood Manor, with a few additions, just to the left of the monstrously ugly apartment building at the center of your photo. That looks like the Del Capri(Sp?) Hotel on the corner at the left, and the Westwood Manor occupied the middle part of that same block.

malumot Feb 9, 2011 11:29 PM

Egregiousness.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 5157838)
now, of course known as Hollywood Forever. Used to be set back from Santa Monica Boulevard a respectful distance behind a stout block wall now it lies mosty hidden behind a commercial monstrosity of a strip center.



Late 1930s.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/..._6_15_1150.jpg

Late 1950s.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...TUSTIN1-sm.jpg

MichaelRyerson Feb 10, 2011 12:24 AM

There are, of course, exceptions but as a general rule
 
I favor greenspace, landscaping and scale as organic considerations over building to the absolute limits of property. Further, I think the elected officials were (philosophically) onto something when they instituted the 150' height limit in the early twentieth century. I have no particular objection to the Knights of Pythias of greater Tustin's headquarters but I'm not sure their rather understated building cuts one way or the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malumot (Post 5158528)
I can both agree and disagree. While I, too, hate buildings plopped down in front of buildings and ruining view (One of Jansen's peeves) I very much like bringing structures right down to the sidewalk in CBDs.

The Cinerama, in fact, always stuck me as out of place (why is this theater, which would work perfectly well in Sherman Oaks or Anaheim, sitting here amidst a sea of parking in what is supposed to be DOWNTOWN Hollywood?)

And they can go overboard with the trees. You'll find no greater arbor-lover than me....99% of the time. But in those 1% of cases, trees can DETRACT, not add, to the street scene.

The Knights of Pythias Building (1925), Downtown Tustin. What passes for a "cool old building" in what for most of its history was a small farm town.


Late 1930s.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/..._6_15_1150.jpg

Late 1950s.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...TUSTIN1-sm.jpg


Los Angeles Past Feb 10, 2011 1:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsjansen (Post 5158015)
well scott, it looks like i could be wrong....(the story of my life)

http://www.lanopalera.net/LAHistory/OldPueblo.gif
Source: LAhistory http://www.lanopalera.net/LAHistory/OldPueblo.gif

here's the link to the web site

Probable Location of the Original
Pueblo de la Reina de los Ángeles
on the River Porciúncula


i'm gonna have to agree that the original location of the plaza was north and west of the current location......it's quite an interesting story


Very interesting, indeed! I have to say - discovering that the present Plaza is actually not the site of the original Plaza is one of the more surprising "new" facts I've discovered as a direct result of our discussions on this thread. Bravo for finding that linked webpage! Lots of important information there. :tup:

-Scott

malumot Feb 10, 2011 2:42 AM

I agree with the 150 ft limit. As to the other we'll have to part ways.

I can - and do - see this all day long. In fact it's ALL I see. Its floorplate is efficient. Its systems are modern. The landscaping is pretty. There's plenty of parking. These are the types of buildings I've worked at the past 25 years. And as to "organic"......there's is nothing "organic" about this, apart from a literal reference to the trees and grass. EVERYTHING you see was meticulously planned beforehand.....every bush, every tree, every crosswalk, every light fixture.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...01_8001icd.jpg

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...er/01_palm.jpg

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/.../irvine-01.jpg

But....To walk down THIS street would be like going to Disneyland...... Feel the steam escaping from the vent at the cleaners......smell that fried chicken.....check out all the exotic herbs in the window at D.R. Wong's........

......all that and I've only walked 1/3 of a block.

....Green River bourbon, you say? Boy I could use a shot and a Lucky Lager. I'm sure we'll find a nice dark bar up the street soon....

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...orthsouths.jpg


Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 5158607)
I favor greenspace, landscaping and scale as organic considerations over building to the absolute limits of property. Further, I think the elected officials were (philosophically) onto something when they instituted the 150' height limit in the early twentieth century. I have no particular objection to the Knights of Pythias of greater Tustin's headquarters but I'm not sure their rather understated building cuts one way or the other.


MichaelRyerson Feb 10, 2011 4:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malumot (Post 5158818)
I agree with the 150 ft limit. As to the other we'll have to part ways.

I can - and do - see this all day long. In fact it's ALL I see. Its floorplate is efficient. Its systems are modern. The landscaping is pretty. There's plenty of parking. These are the types of buildings I've worked at the past 25 years. And as to "organic"......there's is nothing "organic" about this, apart from a literal reference to the trees and grass. EVERYTHING you see was meticulously planned beforehand.....every bush, every tree, every crosswalk, every light fixture.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...01_8001icd.jpg

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...er/01_palm.jpg

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/.../irvine-01.jpg

But....To walk down THIS street would be like going to Disneyland...... Feel the steam escaping from the vent at the cleaners......smell that fried chicken.....check out all the exotic herbs in the window at D.R. Wong's........

......all that and I've only walked 1/3 of a block.

....Green River bourbon, you say? Boy I could use a shot and a Lucky Lager. I'm sure we'll find a nice dark bar up the street soon....

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...orthsouths.jpg

So if there's nothing organic about those properties why do you think they represent something I'm defending? I find them by and large cold and uninviting. As to the street scene, I've wandered those exact streets for over sixty years and generally loved every minute. You're not the only person who is drawn to an urban setting. Again, what in my comments leads you to believe I wouldn't find them so? I think you're spoiling for a fight. You're going to have to look elsewhere.

malumot Feb 10, 2011 6:53 AM

"I favor greenspace, landscaping and scale as organic considerations over building to the absolute limits of property."





Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 5158948)
So if there's nothing organic about those properties why do you think they represent something I'm defending? I find them by and large cold and uninviting. As to the street scene, I've wandered those exact streets for over sixty years and generally loved every minute. You're not the only person who is drawn to an urban setting. Again, what in my comments leads you to believe I wouldn't find them so? I think you're spoiling for a fight. You're going to have to look elsewhere.


MichaelRyerson Feb 10, 2011 1:09 PM

'Buster'? You're really kind of a jerk, aren't you?
 
I favor old Bunker Hill to new Bunker 'Hill', I favor Moderne to modern, I favor the old Brew 102 to a straighter freeway, I favor the Richfield Building to the ARCO Towers and, dare I say it, I favor Wrigley Field to Gilbert Lindsay Park. I don't think the Ficus trees overly detract from the Knights of Pythias Hall and I think would not benefit greatly from their removal. Now you have a nice day. There is absolutely no reason to reply to this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malumot (Post 5159222)
"I favor greenspace, landscaping and scale as organic considerations over building to the absolute limits of property."

Your words, not mine, Buster.

I think we should drop it. Or show me what you DO like. I've lifted up my skirt and shown what I like and what I find too common and banal (certainly here in OC, as well as just about everyplace else I can think of outside of a 100-year old CBD.)

little creative deletions going on above.

gsjansen Feb 10, 2011 2:47 PM

a couple of north broadway then and nowz

looking north on broadway from sunset boulevard 1887 and now

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5214/...3ef86d5b_b.jpg


looking south west on broadway at one of the last remaining old adobes on braodway in sonora town at 639 n. broadway 1957 and now

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5295/...29c21937_b.jpg


Looking south on broadway from alpine street 1931 and now

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/...6b6ee3d2_b.jpg

malumot Feb 10, 2011 4:14 PM

You couldn't have simply replied, could you? You had to get some name calling in.

Anyway.....Read my prior posts and you'll see my stance on these and a few other issues.


Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 5159377)
I favor old Bunker Hill to new Bunker 'Hill', I favor Moderne to modern, I favor the old Brew 102 to a straighter freeway, I favor the Richfield Building to the ARCO Towers and, dare I say it, I favor Wrigley Field to Gilbert Lindsay Park. I don't think the Ficus trees overly detract from the Knights of Pythias Hall and I think would not benefit greatly from their removal. Now you have a nice day. There is absolutely no reason to reply to this.


MichaelRyerson Feb 10, 2011 4:35 PM

You introduced the name-calling.
 
you completely missed the point of the original exchange concerning the imposition of new and unimaginative commercial elements on older developed property crowding out the architect's original concept in favor of maximising the commercial footprint. It generally (always?) results in an ugly monstrosity that destroys the scale of the original building. If the original building is intended to go right out to the sidewalk, I have no problem with that. It is likely the architect recognised that and laid the structure out accordingly with elevations that can be appreciated from up the block or across the street. If he visualises his building on a rise of grass with low hedges and a gazebo, I have no problem with that either. If someone then comes along and crams a dozen retail stores on the front lawn, I can predict with some certainty it is going to look ugly and most of us on this thread are going to lament the result. My example of the strip mall which now fronts the Hollywood Cemetery is familiar to me as I used to live in the neighborhood and can remember the understated wall and scaled setback. By taking my comments out of context you were able to gin up a silly disagreement. I hope you continue to enjoy the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malumot (Post 5159546)
You couldn't have simply replied, could you? You had to get some name calling in.

Anyway.....Read my prior posts and you'll see my stance on these and a few other issues.



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